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soc_puppetSo! Our good friend (okay, I'd never heard of him before one of the List for Entitled, Misogynist Douchecanoes of the Gamer Variety's contributors linked me to his Male Privilege post) PsychicToaster noticed that I linked his stuff! And he wrote a response to his inclusion, even going so far as to link me to it, how sweet :) In return, I thought it would be prudent to provide my own counter response, which is here ♥ Happy reading!
WARNING for mansplanation and other forms of misogyny (on the part of the man), and snark (on the part of me).
A Counter Response to PsychicToaster
Where to start, where to start. Oh, I know! The beginning!
Aside from being labeled as an “entitled, misogynistic douchecanoe”
Uh, nice of you to notice my wording, but I wasn't actually calling you an entitled, misogynist douchecanoe. At the time. However, given that you've since not only self-identified as such, but have demonstrated behavior marking you as one, I'm more than happy to change that!
First off, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt here that you’re not being pointlessly reactionary
Wow, Tone Argument much? Tell me, am I looking for things to get mad about, too?
and say you misinterpreted what I meant by “enjoy the benefits of sexist systems.” By “enjoy” I don’t mean consciously take pleasure in, complete with back-slapping and winking about how much better it is to be men. I mean that it is possible to benefit from it without intending to or wanting to. I didn’t use the word benefit there for a simple reason. How awkward would this sentence be? “One can benefit from the benefits of sexist systems without consciously being sexist, chauvinist, or actively harming others.” Pretty fucking clunky wording, wouldn’t you say?
...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Wow! Excuse me for going all Slytherin here, but dude. I totally knew what you meant by "enjoy" there. Love the condescension, though! It's almost as if you think I've never encountered the word used that way before! (And just to be extra nit-picky, cutting out "from the benefits of" would have given you a completely clunkless sentence there.)
The post was meant to be a primer (emphasis original, link added by yours truly)
Yeah, and that's how I linked it. When I was putting The List together, a friend of mine linked me to it, I thought, "Wow, what a great resource! I should make sure it goes on The List!" and added it. Because it offers comprehensive examples of misogyny and male privilege and how it plays out in the gaming industry. I thought it fit nicely with the title of that section.
I do this because I care about this, and because I want other to care as much as I do. (emphasis original)
And again, that's what I had assumed, until you made a giant mansplaining post with back-patting out the ears. I wasn't intending to hand out cookies in the first place, but now I feel like taking one back anyway.
(In response to my note on the Female Privilege counterpart) Good catch. That was the point. If you notice, it’s shorter than the male privilege list because I had trouble coming up with decent examples, whereas I had to cut the male privilege list down to keep it focused and funny, and not just rant-y.
Uh, yeah. But you didn't say that anywhere. As you must have noticed (your post on Male Privilege and your consequent defense thereof suggest you have, at least), male gamers can and will be willfully ignorant of their own privilege. Presenting your Male and Female Privilege posts without a note at least inviting your readers to compare the relative privileges allows the more Ignorant of the Entitled, Misogynist Douchecanoes to continue to think of the two forms of privilege and the expressions thereof as equal. Since you didn't include the note, I felt the need to.
It was just as important to hold up the mirror to those women gamers and get them to look beyond the images of violence in Grand Theft Auto or exploitation in Night Trap to see that there are sexist systems that are more subtle than bikini chain mail. (link original, emphasis mine)
...And there you go actively presenting the two as equal. WTF, dude, make up your mind.
Also, you think women haven't noticed this shit already? Where the hell have you been, and who have you been listening to? See, this is why we call this particular example of the 'splainin' phenomenon "Mansplanation". Because you, a man, feel it's perfectly reasonable and legitimate even to explain the experiences of women to women. You seem to think we never would have noticed it without you. Maybe we just run in different social circles, but all the female gamers I know never needed to have that shit pointed out to us.
And, repeating for emphasis, the examples you gave? Condescending as hell. If these are the prizes I get for not being a full member of society, for not being a whole person, count me the fuck out. I'll take ugliness and not being used as a prop to move the story along over these tired pieces of shit any day.
I’m not saying the work is over, by any means, but let’s keep some perspective here.
And again with the tone argument. *sigh* Some days, it just doesn't do to get out of bed and attempt to put together a list for the potential education of Entitled, Misogynist Douchecanoes.
Here's my perspective: I'm terrified of most of the gaming industry. It actively objectifies women, and promotes the rape culture. I am not welcome there, and I fear for my safety and autonomy pretty much whenever I visit.
The few examples you list that do better are the exception, rather than the rule, and calling me hysterical and over-sensitive is not going to change that (yes, my words, not yours, but they're common enough when trying to silence women that I could all but taste them here). When the good examples outnumber the bad, then I'll "keep some perspective" on this.
If you want to gripe about game stereotypes, these days it is more productive to focus on beauty and body image bias.
Is that a derail attempt I see? I think it is! Next you'll be bringing up people starving in Africa, and how I shouldn't be worrying about the little ways in which the world tells me I am "less than" because there are other people out there who are worse off. Well, since you're the one deciding when I and other female gamers get to have this conversation, tell me: When do I get to talk about what it's like being a woman and a gamer?
It’s not like the world is going to wake up tomorrow and have gender equality for all. Working for it means awakening others to the issue, and each person so enlightened is a success, not a failure just because they aren’t one specific brand of feminist.
And that, good sir, is why I put the List together in the first place. Because if I want gender equality, I'm going to have to fucking work for it. At the time, I was not calling for you to pay attention; now, however, you're making me reconsider.
TL;DR:
Dear self-proclaimed ally,
I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough for you in the List about the way I was using the links to your posts. In retrospect, I should have included an extra disclaimer, explaining that I was using your Male Privilege post as a good go-to list of examples. Similarly, I should have said that the note was to preempt Gamer Doodz assuming that a complementary post, with no message to the contrary in it, meant that women and girls experience equal benefits from privilege. I just thought most people would have gotten that without needing to be told.
Still, thank you for bringing this to my attention. I do appreciate how you went out of your way to try and explain my own experiences to me, even though I already knew what I was talking about.
Contemptuously yours,
Socchan
PS: Your ass is showing.
EDIT: Misunderstanding more-or-less cleared up :)b Thanks for your time, folks.
WARNING for mansplanation and other forms of misogyny (on the part of the man), and snark (on the part of me).
A Counter Response to PsychicToaster
Where to start, where to start. Oh, I know! The beginning!
Aside from being labeled as an “entitled, misogynistic douchecanoe”
Uh, nice of you to notice my wording, but I wasn't actually calling you an entitled, misogynist douchecanoe. At the time. However, given that you've since not only self-identified as such, but have demonstrated behavior marking you as one, I'm more than happy to change that!
First off, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt here that you’re not being pointlessly reactionary
Wow, Tone Argument much? Tell me, am I looking for things to get mad about, too?
and say you misinterpreted what I meant by “enjoy the benefits of sexist systems.” By “enjoy” I don’t mean consciously take pleasure in, complete with back-slapping and winking about how much better it is to be men. I mean that it is possible to benefit from it without intending to or wanting to. I didn’t use the word benefit there for a simple reason. How awkward would this sentence be? “One can benefit from the benefits of sexist systems without consciously being sexist, chauvinist, or actively harming others.” Pretty fucking clunky wording, wouldn’t you say?
...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Wow! Excuse me for going all Slytherin here, but dude. I totally knew what you meant by "enjoy" there. Love the condescension, though! It's almost as if you think I've never encountered the word used that way before! (And just to be extra nit-picky, cutting out "from the benefits of" would have given you a completely clunkless sentence there.)
The post was meant to be a primer (emphasis original, link added by yours truly)
Yeah, and that's how I linked it. When I was putting The List together, a friend of mine linked me to it, I thought, "Wow, what a great resource! I should make sure it goes on The List!" and added it. Because it offers comprehensive examples of misogyny and male privilege and how it plays out in the gaming industry. I thought it fit nicely with the title of that section.
I do this because I care about this, and because I want other to care as much as I do. (emphasis original)
And again, that's what I had assumed, until you made a giant mansplaining post with back-patting out the ears. I wasn't intending to hand out cookies in the first place, but now I feel like taking one back anyway.
(In response to my note on the Female Privilege counterpart) Good catch. That was the point. If you notice, it’s shorter than the male privilege list because I had trouble coming up with decent examples, whereas I had to cut the male privilege list down to keep it focused and funny, and not just rant-y.
Uh, yeah. But you didn't say that anywhere. As you must have noticed (your post on Male Privilege and your consequent defense thereof suggest you have, at least), male gamers can and will be willfully ignorant of their own privilege. Presenting your Male and Female Privilege posts without a note at least inviting your readers to compare the relative privileges allows the more Ignorant of the Entitled, Misogynist Douchecanoes to continue to think of the two forms of privilege and the expressions thereof as equal. Since you didn't include the note, I felt the need to.
It was just as important to hold up the mirror to those women gamers and get them to look beyond the images of violence in Grand Theft Auto or exploitation in Night Trap to see that there are sexist systems that are more subtle than bikini chain mail. (link original, emphasis mine)
...And there you go actively presenting the two as equal. WTF, dude, make up your mind.
Also, you think women haven't noticed this shit already? Where the hell have you been, and who have you been listening to? See, this is why we call this particular example of the 'splainin' phenomenon "Mansplanation". Because you, a man, feel it's perfectly reasonable and legitimate even to explain the experiences of women to women. You seem to think we never would have noticed it without you. Maybe we just run in different social circles, but all the female gamers I know never needed to have that shit pointed out to us.
And, repeating for emphasis, the examples you gave? Condescending as hell. If these are the prizes I get for not being a full member of society, for not being a whole person, count me the fuck out. I'll take ugliness and not being used as a prop to move the story along over these tired pieces of shit any day.
I’m not saying the work is over, by any means, but let’s keep some perspective here.
And again with the tone argument. *sigh* Some days, it just doesn't do to get out of bed and attempt to put together a list for the potential education of Entitled, Misogynist Douchecanoes.
Here's my perspective: I'm terrified of most of the gaming industry. It actively objectifies women, and promotes the rape culture. I am not welcome there, and I fear for my safety and autonomy pretty much whenever I visit.
The few examples you list that do better are the exception, rather than the rule, and calling me hysterical and over-sensitive is not going to change that (yes, my words, not yours, but they're common enough when trying to silence women that I could all but taste them here). When the good examples outnumber the bad, then I'll "keep some perspective" on this.
If you want to gripe about game stereotypes, these days it is more productive to focus on beauty and body image bias.
Is that a derail attempt I see? I think it is! Next you'll be bringing up people starving in Africa, and how I shouldn't be worrying about the little ways in which the world tells me I am "less than" because there are other people out there who are worse off. Well, since you're the one deciding when I and other female gamers get to have this conversation, tell me: When do I get to talk about what it's like being a woman and a gamer?
It’s not like the world is going to wake up tomorrow and have gender equality for all. Working for it means awakening others to the issue, and each person so enlightened is a success, not a failure just because they aren’t one specific brand of feminist.
And that, good sir, is why I put the List together in the first place. Because if I want gender equality, I'm going to have to fucking work for it. At the time, I was not calling for you to pay attention; now, however, you're making me reconsider.
TL;DR:
Dear self-proclaimed ally,
I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough for you in the List about the way I was using the links to your posts. In retrospect, I should have included an extra disclaimer, explaining that I was using your Male Privilege post as a good go-to list of examples. Similarly, I should have said that the note was to preempt Gamer Doodz assuming that a complementary post, with no message to the contrary in it, meant that women and girls experience equal benefits from privilege. I just thought most people would have gotten that without needing to be told.
Still, thank you for bringing this to my attention. I do appreciate how you went out of your way to try and explain my own experiences to me, even though I already knew what I was talking about.
Contemptuously yours,
Socchan
PS: Your ass is showing.
EDIT: Misunderstanding more-or-less cleared up :)b Thanks for your time, folks.
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no subject
Date: 2010-10-08 05:43 pm (UTC)This back-and-forth has made for a great read, and got me to go read the privilege lists, which previously I had ignored.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-08 06:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-12 09:41 pm (UTC)Wow, I'm not sure I want to read that, but I checked his "Female Privilege" part (because there's not a lot of text, and many images - yay my ladybrainz feels happyyy). Wow? Wow. I just like (as in, you know, not) how BAD it starts:
No matter how dire the circumstances, I can expect someone to come to my aid without any expectation of reward.
I just don't want to imagine what that phrase turns into once the "privilege" is "debunked". But I assume it would be something like that: "As a man saving you, a woman, from fire-breathing magical sorcerer dragons/helping you figuring out how the computer works, I have the right to ask for a physical, psychological and/or financial reward." Ttlly a right. Ttlly a privilege.
And putting a pic of Zelda and Link here just makes no sense: Zelda is the active character, not a "pretty damsel waiting to be rescued", while Link is, um, a very irritating "Nice Guy"TM who's "as horny as Pepe Le Pew" (shudders): "She's always saving the day, always planning the strategies, and even pushing her loved one out of the way so she can focus on her work." (@ 10:26-10:41)
Strike all of that out. That whole list of "Female Privilege" is the wangsting of a "Nice Guy"TM.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-12 09:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-13 02:53 pm (UTC)Thankfully, things have been pretty much cleared up between the OP and me; he genuinely apologized pretty soon after my response went up, and was interested in keeping things public when I offered to lock them down now that he knew what was going on (to save face for him and whatnot). Seems like he really did understand what I meant in my original post (WRT who was doing the "not caring"), as well as not seeing any particular reason to include a disclaimer/"think about it" line in the Female Privilege post (which, well, lack of foresight on his part, I'm thinking, though I'm guessing he still doesn't have such a line up, which is disappointing). [/run-on sentences] And maybe next time he'll have another think before deciding to dine on shoe pudding.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-08 05:07 am (UTC)With regards to the portrayal of women, beauty standards isn't the core issue here--it's a symptom. The real problem is agency, as it always is, whether the issue is women or gays or blacks or the disabled or what-have-you, because with agency eventually comes everything else. Of course, pretty privilege is a battle all its own, but it's related to sexism the same way that racism is related to sexism--and I say that as someone for whom race and gender are inextricably tangled, because in almost any situation where my gender is an issue, my race will modulate the situation from that of an otherwise "unmarked" female. But I won't pretend for a moment that the relationship works the same way for everyone, and I'm certainly not going to claim that one of them is more important than the other.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-08 07:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-08 06:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-08 06:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 11:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-08 06:25 am (UTC)He made the mistake first by not getting the point of the post, and it's quite possible that was due to bias, but I don't think that makes him a misogynist, just someone who didn't read carefully and got angry about it.
Indeed.
Date: 2010-10-08 01:32 pm (UTC)I was wrong, I am sorry.
Re: Indeed.
Date: 2010-10-08 02:39 pm (UTC)And now, I believe I actually do have a clarifying edit or two to make; if one person can make the mistake, then so can a dozen more 9_9a
All that being said, do you have any preferences for how I treat this post? Since things are cleared up, I'm more than willing to at least block it from public viewing.
Re: Indeed.
Date: 2010-10-08 03:40 pm (UTC)http://www.psychictoaster.com/2010/10/08/signals-crossed/
I have no problem with it remaining public. I deserved some of that. That said, I'll make the same offer to you if you'd like everything from yesterday and today pulled down.
Side note, always nice to find another steampunk fan.
In fact, I wouldn't mind a serious response from you on this question:
http://www.psychictoaster.com/2010/02/18/gender-power-and-violence/
Re: Indeed.
Date: 2010-10-08 06:06 pm (UTC)Steampunk totally rocks :Db
I'll go take a look at that, then.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-08 06:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 01:42 am (UTC)