(no subject)

[soc_puppet]

...Fucking hell. I don't want to start wank, and this is a person I otherwise find interesting and want to get to know better and potentially have as a fandom friend, but uh. "If you like but don't reblog, I'm disappointed it you?" (Not you, alexseanchai; I'm linking your reblog because it includes the image descriptions. Also we are already friends, so.)

I feel like this is, in part, a major cultural difference between fans who primarily got started on FF.net and LJ and so forth, and fans who primarily got started on Tumblr. But I'm also not that huge a fan of the whole "Reblog or I will guilt you about it" thing, or the "This is how you fandom correctly" thing, no matter the context.

And I also feel like, if I bring any of this up on Tumblr, it is more likely to turn into wank than a productive conversation, due to the nature of Tumblr as a content aggregation site. Any productive conversation we may try to have will almost inevitably get lost as people reblog from one of us and not the other, and I just. Don't want to go there! Especially since I should already be turning the light out tonight, as I have work tomorrow, and trying to do any sort of damage control or prevention on Tumblr would necessitate me staying up probably another hour and a half, maybe longer.

But also, if I don't say anything I'll be disappointed in myself and probably toss and turn anyway for at least an hour and a half, still without getting any sleep?

So, compromise: Posting about it here. Hopefully tomorrow I'll either have gotten over this, or come up with a diplomatic/polite enough way to phrase "That guilt trip thing you're doing is making me uncomfortable, and the way you're trying to make me interact with social media on your terms rather than my own is not helping even a little" that I can send an ask or something and then get on with my life.

Comments

[alexseanchai]

a couple contexts I am not sure you know:

1) likes outnumbering reblogs did not, many people who have been active on fannish Tumblr for a while inform me, used to be a thing; I have seen various explanations for this change, am not entirely sure what the truth is, but the change certainly happened and is clearly detrimental to Tumblr-centric creators and consumers alike

2) an AO3 kudos does help readers find the work in that it bumps it up the sort-by-kudos; a Tumblr like does approximately nothing for the work's visibility, where a reblog forwards it to the reblogger's audience

I mean, guilt trips do suck! but that doesn't mean letting the likes-way-outnumber-reblogs trend continue is good either.

[soc_puppet]

First one I knew, second one I hadn't really thought about. Need to think more, but still miffed and also still need sleep 🤔 Sleep will help both of these, I think.

(Also makes me even more glad I decided to stick with posting here rather than Tumblr. Not the kind of cultural confusion I want to have there!)

Edit: Side note, for me, personally, reblogs actually take more work than just hitting like, even if my only input is adding tags (which I do for every post, at an absolute minimum of four tags, though I try for at least five). I understand this is not true of everyone, but it's something I definitely consider.

[alexseanchai]

that is also a true point

[mecurtin]

I am absolutely in your shoes: reblogs are a LOT more work, because of tags (minimum of 2, but usually more).

[soc_puppet]

Urgh, yes 😣 And that's not even getting into image descriptions, which is how I ended up with a 100+ tab backlog...

(frozen)

[cbrachyrhynchos]

Honestly, I'm not convinced that the hierarchy of views > likes > recommends is necessarily a problem, and I'm starting to dread how nearly every online transaction these days is followed up with a request that I give away free marketing labor.

(frozen)

[alexseanchai]

On AO3, that hierarchy is not a problem.

…on AO3, fanworks can be searched for with a reasonable expectation of success. On Tumblr, this is mostly not so. On AO3, as long as at least one tag is correctly applied, people who have never heard of the creator can find the fanwork. On Tumblr, this is mostly not so.

Tumblr is designed horribly for fandom, for a lot of reasons. It's also the least bad alternative to a lot of people for a lot of reasons, not least of which is media hosting—Dreamwidth has little image support and none for audio or video; AO3 has not got that much—and I find I cannot blame people for trying to work around Tumblr's disadvantages.

(frozen)

[cbrachyrhynchos]

I can. In fact, I'd say that attempting to guilt-trip other people into doing fandom their way is a bigger problem for tumblr than a lack of reblogs.

(frozen)

[alexseanchai]

Hell, maybe it is.

So what solution do you propose to the lack of reblogs, if "trying to get others to reblog stuff, recognizing that some proportion of those attempts will be guilt trips no matter how little we like guilt trips, and also reblogging stuff oneself" isn't it? Alternately, how do you propose to get others to reblog content without any of anyone's such attempts being guilt trips? Alternately, given Tumblr's current structure, what solution do you propose to the lack of content visibility if increasing everybody's reblogs isn't it?

(frozen)

[cbrachyrhynchos]

Is there a lack of reblogs? My perception is that there is a lot of reblogging happening on tumblr. So I'm not convinced that reblogging is either a problem or a solution compared to discoverability.

I have no trouble with people asking for reblogs. I have a big problem with people wagging the finger and saying, "Hey! You, whose tumblr is 80% original content, half of which isn't even about fandom! You're the problem for not reblogging enough!" That's my problem with the original discussion.

(frozen)

[alexseanchai]

A few years ago, I understand, like:reblog ratios of 1:1 were, if perhaps not the norm, certainly not rare. Now anything as low as 3:1 is pretty good. That is a key part of the problem here.

Sounds like your problem with the original discussion is that you think you're the target audience. Which, if you are not being hypocritical about it (and I have no reason to believe you are), you do not seem to be.

(frozen)

[cbrachyrhynchos]

Or maybe, people still reblog as many as 100 posts per day and are more selective about what they're reblogging. like:reblog ratios don't say anything about the total volume of reblog posts. Certainly not enough to justify wagging the finger and trying to shame people into reblogging more.

My problem is that the original discussion involved a bad inference from the wrong evidence, and a moral claim which I think can't be supported.

(frozen)

[alexseanchai]

…total volume of reblog posts is not a relevant consideration in the way you seem to be suggesting? if you are wanting at least one of more people consuming your content and more content for you to consume, you want total volume of reblog posts to increase! because if total volume of reblog posts stayed the same while total original content being reblogged increased, then reblogs per original post would have to decrease, which hurts that content's visibility and is thus counterproductive.

if the moral claim you refer to is the guilt trip: I already said guilt trips bad, I am not interested in this time at arguing with anyone who holds any contrary position, and I am not interested in supporting or being perceived to support any contrary position myself. I am interested in addressing the problem that the guilt trip is a perceived solution to.

and I am hearing a lot of you don't think it's a problem at all because—since you don't seem interested in greater visibility for your own work, nor in greater visibility for stuff you want to find that you might not otherwise encounter, and further you don't want to reblog much to your main blog at all and you don't seem interested in having a sideblog (and, to be clear, I do not think any of that is a wrong way to do fandom or to do tumblr!)—it is not a problem for you.

(frozen)

[cbrachyrhynchos]

Ratios here are misleading. 33% of 100 is more than 100% of 10. If I run a fanblog devoted to art, is it a problem if I only reblog art? What about if it's meta or fic? What if I don't want wank on my blog, and I don't see the post before the wanky comments? What if I like Kirk/Bones but only reblog Spock/Kirk? What if I appreciate slash but curate gen? What if I think fashion blogging about the show is hilarious but a bad fit for my theme?

What if, out of the hundreds of things I scrolled through on my feed, your piece just didn't get into the top 10% that I wanted to reblog?

So no, I don't think like:ratio reblogs are sufficient to demonstrate a problem. And even in a gift economy one isn't entitled to either likes or reblogs. That has nothing to do with my own blogging, which isn't involved in the tumblr "economy" at all.

(frozen)

[alexseanchai]

What if, instead of criticizing people who are involved in the tumblr fandom gift economy for attempting to address problems we perceive that the tumblr fandom gift economy has, you as someone who is not so involved kept your opinion to yourself?

(frozen)

[cbrachyrhynchos]

Well, tumblr is just implementing systems that have become ubiquitous across social media, and I still end up reading material on tumblr anyway. So unfortunately this particular drama driven by the influence economy that's increasingly baked into everything from tumblr to the house that sells my sewing patterns is becoming unavoidable. There's already AO3 drama along these same lines.

It's no longer a gift economy if you're demanding marketing labor as your price, and bad arguments are bad arguments. Arguing first that I'm overly involved and then uninvolved doesn't change that.

(frozen)

[alexseanchai]

(1) you are the one arguing you are uninvolved; I'm pointing out the logical extension of that argument

(2) criticizing people for trying to solve problems they perceive to the extent the site architecture allows still doesn't seem the world's best use of your time; if you have a better solution to the problem we're perceiving, then by all means present it!

(frozen)

[soc_puppet]

...Dammit, I knew I should've refreshed before posting that comment; I meant to reply to whatever was the most recent in this thread.

Anyway, comment still applies; this is approximately enough of this business for my taste, please and thank you.

(frozen)

[cbrachyrhynchos]

*rolls eyes*

These arguments are not limited to tumblr and don't stay on tumblr. They're also made about ao3 and other sites. And since I'm professionally involved in online community development, I'm entitled to my opinion about how these norms are shaped. As tumblr goes to heck, so does the rest of fandom.

Sorry, like:reblog ratios don't say what you think they say, but I'm done arguing that.

(frozen)

[soc_puppet]

I would have liked to believe that you were done arguing when I, the owner of this blog, asked you politely to be done, but that was clearly not the case! I will be freezing this thread and the other one you're in. In the future, I would very much appreciate it if you were to stop when I ask you to. (Yes, I could have been slightly more clear. No, that does not mean I appreciate your further commentary.)

(frozen)

[soc_puppet]

Okay, I think we've gotten all the productive discussion we possibly can out of this topic. Thanks very much for your input, both of you, but at this point I think we're going to have to chalk things up to philosophical differences and social media culture differences. I appreciate your cooperation!

[krait]

Oh, one of those. :/

I have zero time for people who post things like that, and things like that are definitely part of why I never could get into Tumblr in any meaningful way.

If someone doesn't like the way I run my own blog, they are cordially invited to keep out of it. How incredibly rude and entitled to think that you get to tell other people how to use their own personal blogs. (A gentle hint might be acceptable, but not this guilt-tripping, Let Me Tell You How You're Doing Fandom Wrong approach!) Not to mention how pointless it is; you are not the Empress of Fandom, and nobody is going to heed your Imperial Commands regarding Correct Fan Behaviour.

[soc_puppet]

The person I was referring to would be (or rather, would not be) the Emperor of fandom rather than Empress, but yeah, pretty much.

I mean, I sympathize to a certain extent? I, too, yearn for the days when fandom interaction and communication was in the style I found most familiar and comfortable, but I deal with that by trying to make Dreamwidth as enticing as possible to people who might be interested in it, not by... this mess.

[dinoblob]

My 2 cents: ignore guilt trippy posts like that.

What sucks is, the point of the original post isn't a bad one--it could just be rephrased in a dozen more encouraging and positive ways like, "Hey, if you really want to make a difference in supporting an author or artist, reblogs help them get more recognition which in turn helps them stay active in the fandom! Be somebody's hero with just a few extra seconds of time!" etc, at least I feel like I've seen something similar floating around before.

But it also seems clear to me that both the OP and person that replied to them posted from a place of being frustrated when making their points, so I would handle with care if they feel that defensive about the topic.

The least confrontational way is to make or reblog positively-worded posts making the same point--because you can be on the same page about content curation but Not about that guilt trip method.

Or messaging them directly because discussion via reblogging or replying is clunky, like you pointed out, people just reblog one chunk and not the others. I think I've seen more drama play out in reblog chains than anywhere else, because it feels like a shouting match that can then be reblogged, tipping the attention to one side or another, creating a spectacle.

I haven't been active on Tumblr in the last few years so I haven't seen a lot of stuff about lack of content and like vs reblog ratios, is that really common now? The stuff I used to see were rather reposts getting more attention than original posts or other types of theft/uncrediting rather than lack of boosting content creators.

[soc_puppet]

"Be somebody's hero!" is just such an affirming way of framing it, too! Especially since the fandom we have in common is about superheroes!

Yeah, I think I'm content just venting my spleen here on Dreamwidth, especially now that my feelings have been validated ♥

Apparently the reblogs-to-likes ratio used to be a lot closer to 1:1? Pretty sure that was long before my time, though. No idea how prominent art theft is or isn't, that's outside my usual circle.

[alexseanchai]

I don't have any idea how much art gets stolen, but it does get stolen way too often

[gullwhacker]

I haven't posted or reblogged anything to my Tumblr in...months? Years? Not even sure any more. It's sort of a guilt-anxiety thing caused by too many of those 'everyone needs to signal boost this' posts.

If I break my silence for one thing, at this point it feels like I was snubbing everything that came before, everything I let pass by. Calls to action, important news, excellent fanworks - what makes one worth reblogging and not another?

...and so the only choice I've become comfortable with is to let my Tumblr rust in silence.

[soc_puppet]

Oof. I feel you on the weird guilt shit. I've gotten pretty arbitrary about what I reblog, and tend to stay away from boosting fundraisers of people I don't personally follow, if only because that would probably be half my posts otherwise.

[redsixwing]

Ugh.

My line in the sand is 'never reblog guilt trips,' with the same caveat about how it's likely to cause wank if I do anything else.

Good idea to take care of yourself, and pursue your fandom in your way.

[soc_puppet]

As a lapsed Catholic, I've already done a good deal to overcome a bad relationship with guilt; I don't need to start another one.

Thanks ♥

(frozen)

[cbrachyrhynchos]

Just my two bits:

Tumblr's design is hopelessly confused between social media and blogging site. My blog is a curated collection of personal writing and links. I'm not obligated to change that editorial focus when I'm neck deep in fandom-of-the-month. One is not entitled to space on my blog, especially in a context like tumblr where reblogging can put me in the crosshairs of one or more harassment cliques.

I am not a paid marketer. I barely have time and energy for developing my own work. I don't need to take on the labor of curating both the reblogs and the potential responses to other people's work. A large part of that is on tumblr/oath for creating that system. But even so, one isn't obligated to space on my blog.

(frozen)

[alexseanchai]

The thing is, you're not entitled to space on anyone else's blog, either, and if people don't reblog stuff you want people to see, people are not going to see it.

I don't know about the OP of the post soc_puppet linked. But the second person in the thread reblogs fan content he didn't create all the time. That's the implicit other side of the deal. If you're on Tumblr wanting people to consume the fan content you create and/or to find fan content other people created, you are relying on other people to reblog fan content, and your part of the deal is, you reblog fan content too.

Not doing that is a choice you can make. But not doing that and then wondering why your fic has no readers and you aren't seeing much fic to read? Not cool.

(frozen)

[cbrachyrhynchos]

I don't think the contract model you're proposing here works. The network ties involved with reading or reblogging are way too thin to claim that we have a "deal." It's often the case that we're three or more degrees of separation from the original work. (And in fact, I think that's a huge problem where tumblr is concerned. I ended up dogpiled when one of my link posts got picked up by the TERF-sphere for example.)

We don't have to all do the same things in fandom, or even have the same fandoms. So this argument that I'm breaking some sort of a deal for not boosting your thing doesn't make sense to me.

(frozen)

[alexseanchai]

If you are not expecting nor even hoping for anyone to reblog your content, and if you are content with the volume of content you find and not expecting nor even hoping for more, then you are not being a hypocrite by not reblogging anyone else's content. And it's not a one-to-one anyway and I don't think I implied it was? Gift economies don't work if no one gives.

(frozen)

[soc_puppet]

*shrug* Yeah, pretty much. I know that Tumblr's a very different system from Dreamwidth, and that the users largely took it in a direction that none of the staff anticipated and none of the venture capitalists were prepared to deal with, so I'm prepared to say no when someone pulls something like this. Hell, I've pulled a harder and more public no over a "People need to reblog art!!!" guilt post before.

And I understand that exposure is largely what people want out of Tumblr, and what pays the bills for a lot of creators? But trying to guilt me into that, no matter how mildly, definitely does not sit well.

So yeah, pretty much that.

[alexseanchai]

things I was not, for the record, at any point intending to do here, but seem to have done anyway and wish to apologize for: get wanky

[soc_puppet]

As long as it doesn't escalate any further and we can end things more-or-less civilly here, I'm still willing to take the win. Pretty sure it would've been worse on Tumblr, and not just because the other party and I both have certain levels of BNF-dom, if in different circles. Better to keep it as self-contained as I can.

[gwydion]

I have a notice up on my tumblr profile, "I don't do "reblog if you believe X" posts, as I feel they are coercive to the reader and if you read my stuff you already know what I believe." I am super strict about this.

[soc_puppet]

That's very reasonable! I rather like those sorts of posts, but I can see how they could easily become very stressful. I may have to give that more thought myself.