Update on Kittens and Spitefic

[soc_puppet]

(Tentative name is tentative.)

As I said in my second update on yesterday's post, turns out the person I got in contact with was not actually the comm's owner/creator! They did tell me that the comm's creator is pretty much vanished from LJ—and also that said creator got caught sending anon hate. So for both of those reasons, I am not at all concerned with getting in contact with the comm's actual creator to get their permission/blessing/what-have-you, and will be going ahead with mine regardless. I am currently unsure how, or even if, I should address the issue of my comm's inspiration; I'm leaning slightly towards a note at the bottom of the comm's profile just to cover my ass, mentioning both the original comm and the comm owner's bad behavior without naming names, but I'm open to suggestions.

Up next is one of the harder parts of running a comm, for me: Coming up with the rules! I want "prompts" to be open to most stuff, but this means that some "prompts" have the potential to be, uh. Stressful.

For example, if I want to "prompt" for trans interpretations of characters, I might post a fake rant about trans headcanons being "bad"/"not canon"/etc, which is, uh. Well, it might be unfun for a lot of people to read! And yeah, that sort of thing definitely fuels spite decisions in headcanons and fic writing and so forth, but even when the prompt itself is done ironically(?), that still has the potential to be a bad surprise for someone scrolling through their reading page.

So I think I'm going to have a rule that says people need to put anything micro/macro-aggression-ish under a cut tag, at minimum, put the aggression that it is in the cut text (for example, transphobia), and then tag the entry with "bigotry in the prompt" or something? Does that sound reasonable?

And then after that, I need to figure out what content I won't allow. "Nothing pro-Nazi" is, as far as I'm concerned, a given, but it's somewhat easier to weed that out/prevent it than, say, "Nothing Radfem", which a lot of people have more trouble recognizing. I want to disallow racism as well, but I'm not entirely sure I'd always be able to recognize it when it comes up, either.

Anyway, yeah. Coming up with rules for this stuff trips me up and gets me tangled in my own thoughts a bit. Aside from that, though, I am pretty jazzed about the positive reaction folks have had to the comm idea 😃 There is much potential fun to be had...

Edit: Still working on other rules, but I'm going to start with having all rant/prompt posts go under cuts, not just stuff that is potentially sensitive. The potentially sensitive stuff should still get a warning in the cut text, just to be safe, but more general "I hate your favorite character" rants are also not necessarily a fun surprise on your reading page, even if they are written with Opposite Day rules.

Comments

[mistressofmuses]

I think the "please cut the sorts of rants that might be upsetting" rule is very fair.

Rules on prohibited content are always hard... Radfem stuff can be hard to recognize for people who don't know a lot about it, as can racist microaggressions or other dogwhistles that target groups you aren't personally a part of. However, a broad rule that covers any similarly hateful content (also allowing concerned comm members to bring up anything a mod/admin didn't personally notice) may be enough. Trying to preemptively prevent every individual bad thing someone could say or do is a losing battle, but leaving no wiggle room for assholes trying to rule-lawyer with "but it didn't say I couldn't do THAT, SPECIFICALLY" is usually a good idea, too.

It is a shame the original owner of the old comm turned out to be a lousy person in that regard, but hooray for being able to make a new, better comm!

[soc_puppet]

I think I'll actually be taking krait's suggestion of having all "prompt" posts be cut; easier than trying to decide which posts warrant cutting and which don't, let alone how to write the rules to apply that way, and has a few other bonuses to boot. Like not accidentally seeing another rant about how your favorite character sucks, even if the rant is meant to be ironic and to prompt more content in favor of them.

Figuring out how to word the prohibited content stuff is going to be difficult enough as it is, especially since part of the point of the comm is basically Opposite Day rules. And I definitely need to brush up on denise's explanation of DW's content regulation rules, as well. ...Which I'll have to dig up, but at least I know where it is in my Tumblr links.

I am very much looking forward to making vast improvements on their initial concept!

[mistressofmuses]

All posts being cut is a good idea! That does keep anything from having to be a judgement call on the part of a poster or of a mod, and can help with those other circumstances, too - the things that aren't hurtful or triggering, but the ones that just dredge up bad feelings.

Wording for prohibited things will be a bit tricky, considering the nature of the comm in particular! I know DW's content policies are very permissive, but making sure nothing crosses the lines that are there is certainly important.

[fensandmarshes]

It sounds super exciting!!

[soc_puppet]

Thanks! I'm definitely looking forward to the results 😁

[vriddy]

I wonder if keeping it to stupid ship wars/ooc wars and the like, and asking for even fake bigotry to be left out is a possibility, but that might be too fine a line to properly set a rule for. I feel like that'd still leave space for "of course trans!A would never do X" fake-trolling and spite etc, that'd result in delightful trans headcanons but then again... It's probably too fuzzy. Definitely agree on the cuts and warnings to help with mitigating that!

A brief "inspired by the concept of [other comm]" on the profile might be enough, I think, to give distant credit without associating with it? Especially since the new comm would also expand on the original concept, with allowing more ratings etc.

Edit: I wonder, would it be okay to mention these 2 posts of yours in my next Community Thursday entry to see if other people have ideas to help hash out the rules? Or is it too early in the process? Not that I think it'd bring hordes of folks, haha, but I'd rather ask first while there isn't a comm yet.

[soc_puppet]

Yeah, finding a way to set the rules so they're clear for everyone when the subject matter is so, well, subjective is more of a challenge than I really want to take on here, I think. I might have to anyway, at least for some subjects (see: Nazis, Radfems, etc), but the fewer things I have to do that for, the easier it will be for me. And everyone, probably.

Below, krait suggested that users cut all posts by default, which I think is probably what I'm going to go with. It should hopefully cut down on accidental unfun surprises a lot, be they in terms of bigotry or just not wanting to see another rant about how much your fave sucks, even if it is ironic. Or hell, seeing a rant that you completely agree with, and knowing that its only purpose is to generate content for the opposite opinion!


I would absolutely be okay with you sharing around these posts on Community Thursday! I may make another one first (I had a conversation elseweb that reminded me that people might want to use the comm to prompt Harry Potter stuff, and I want to figure out how to address that, at least), but more input seems like a good idea. Try and shake out a few more bugs before I get too far along and stuff.

[vriddy]

I don't fully get singling out that fandom (the author has garbage takes, for sure) when there are also other fandoms with crappy creators, but HP hasn't been my fandom for nearly 20 years so I'll bow to people who know better why it deserves special rules. Limiting some topics like the ones you mention sounds wise!

Keeping everything under cuts sounds like a great idea! Easier to manage rules-wise, and also gives people the choice to read the rant or not, depending on their current mood!

[soc_puppet]

Harry Potter and JKR are a pretty complicated issue. I think that the majority of Trans Tumblr and possibly also Jewish Tumblr have decided that giving Harry Potter any positive attention is tantamount to giving JKR a platform? If only by keeping her "relevant". I do know that someone else over on Dreamwidth is wondering if the prevalence of Harry Potter stuff on pan-fandom communities is scaring away people from Tumblr and possibly Twitter; according to them, Harry Potter seems to be more accepted here, for all that there's still plenty of content for it on both Tumblr and Twitter. From my experiences on Tumblr, I would certainly say that it's less demonized over here, and I'm left feeling like there's a fine line to walk with it.

In case you hadn't guessed yet, I'm 100% on board with things that are both easier for me to manage and make things better for users 😉

[lightbird]

A note at the bottom of the comm's profile seems like a good way to cover yourself, and I think it's just generally good policy to hat-tip the original comm anyway.

[soc_puppet]

Yeah, that was my thinking; it's polite to cite inspiration as appropriate, and also means I'm less likely to get accused of stealing someone's idea (or similar) down the line. Much less trouble for me, and also generally the moral thing to do!

[krait]

Would it be possible to suggest/insist that 'rants' about sexuality, gender identity, and race should be clearly framed as "too common" or having a specific element (e.g. "but why does X always top," or "there's too much detail about trying on binders") that the ranter ~doesn't like~, instead of more general 'bad,' 'wrong,' or 'noncanon' framing?

Those might also brush up against a passerby's nerves, but there's a tonal difference between "Man I ~hate~ nonbinary!Bob fics, they're so uncanonical" and "I ~hate~ that there's so much nonbinary!Bob fic with lavish, detailed descriptions of Bob's first time wearing a dress and feeling pretty!" and hopefully the latter is less jarring and less aggressive.

("Under a cut" is also a great rule, of course. Maybe for all prompts - in case someone isn't in the mod to see even a joking complaint about their fave, and to make it easier to remember to cut touchier content.)

[soc_puppet]

I'm honestly liking the "cut everything" option better; I remember when the Homestuck kink meme started asking people to put all of the requested kinks in the subject line, and that worked out really well. The original goal was to not implicitly kinkshame anyone, even for "objectionable" kinks, but the curbcutter effect meant that it was a lot easier to browse prompts for stuff I might be interested in myself.

It also seems a lot easier to enforce than trying to draw lines about "rant" subject matter. I'm definitely leaning more permissive for content in the comm, and from my perspective, part of the "fun" is holding a sarcastic mirror to any opinions that set your teeth on edge. Figuring out how to word the rules so people only prompt sensitive subjects a certain way, and then making sure the rules are interpreted the way I meant, sounds hugely complicated.

On top of that, "cut everything" would make it easier for people to skip any posts for stuff that isn't necessarily sensitive content or widely triggering, but that they personally find distasteful. It's honestly seeming like the way to go, for me. So yes! Excellent suggestion, thank you!