Follow-up to Headdesk Moment

[soc_puppet]

[Trigger Warning for transphobia, homophobia]

Background for this is over here; same trigger warning applies.

Socchan VS Roommate J's Internalized/Unconscious Transphobia: Round One:

Early yesterday afternoon, I attempted to confront J about what I found problematic in the story she told about her coworker. It went something like this...

Me: So hey, about that story you told me last night, the one about your coworker?
J: Yeah?
Me: I felt it had some transphobic elements.
J: What's that?
Me: Transphobia is the fear or hatred of people whose presented gender does not match their body's sex.
J: Yeah, and?
Me: Some parts of your story seemed a little transphobic to me. Like the way you were uncomfortable because it was a guy you knew in a dress.
J: That's ridiculous.
Roommate C, entering the room and the conversation: It sounds as if it could be one of those situations where she saw someone in a style of dress that she wasn't accustomed to seeing them in rather than a specific reaction to the "man wearing a dress" part. Like if we saw Mutual Friend P dressed really formally for some reason, we'd need a moment to process.
Me: [I remained silent here, hoping that J would confirm this hypothesis, even though I was fairly certain this was not the case; maybe she would at least re-think things now that it was a new day]
J: No, it's because he was wearing a dress.
C: Way to prove me wrong.
Me: Anyway, there were some transphobic elements to the way you told your story that implied that you are less than comfortable with someone you know dressing outside of traditional gender roles.
J: I'm fine with men in dresses; I've been to drag shows before. It's just weird for me to see this particular guy wearing a dress, because I didn't know the other drag performers outside of dress-wearing situations.
Me: I'm not saying you're transphobic, I'm saying parts of your story sounded that way.
J: I'm not transphobic.
Me: What you were saying did kinda sound transphobic.
J: I'm NOT transphobic!
Me: There were elements of your story that were transphobic-sounding.
J: I am not transphobic.
Me: I'm not saying you are! I'm saying that parts of your story were transphobic!
J: Look, I'm really tired right now; let's just talk about this later. (And I'm not transphobic!)
Me: ...Fine.

This is definitely not word-for-word, or even necessarily event-for-event, but it's roughly what happened.

Observations: Sadly, this is one instance where the Jay Smooth "How to tell people they sound racist" approach failed miserably, sigh. I do note that J took the "celebrity" path of flipping the What You Did conversation into the What You Are conversation at the first possible opportunity, as well :|

I will note that my definition of transphobia in the recreation is fairly accurate to real life; apparently I default to the shortest possible explanation, even when it's not necessarily the best for the situation ^^a

Individual snippet analysis:
"I'm fine with men in dresses; I've been to drag shows before. It's just weird for me to see this particular guy wearing a dress, because I didn't know the other drag performers outside of dress-wearing situations."
While this is definitely not a word-for-word recreation, the sentiments are pretty close to identical to what she spouted. My interpretation was that she had never had a personal connection to a drag queen before (that she knew of), and now she does, and it's weird for her that she has to think of at least one drag performer as (more of?) a person now. My fear is that she'll go the other way with that :(

"Look, I'm really tired right now; let's just talk about this later. (And I'm not transphobic!)"
I interpreted this as "My privilege is blocking me from fully understanding what's being said here, so I'm going to go curl up in it like a blanket for a while." She certainly was tired, of course, but it's also a huge privilege to be able to walk away from a conversation like that. I didn't push the issue because I was pretty sure I wasn't going to get anywhere with the way things were going.


Unfortunately, Round One used up my "Remember that story you told the other day" approach, as well as (potentially) the What You Did conversation. I'm going to have to re-strategize for Round Two. Current plan is to approach from the other side by explaining the idea of Internalized -Isms. I have no idea as yet what to do if that fails. (Maybe I could attempt to shut down her "I'm not transphobic!" derail/shut down with "Shut up and listen to what I'm actually trying to tell you"? Gah... I'm so much less organized in immediate conversations than respond-as-you-have-time conversations (e-mail, LJ/forum/blog comments, etc).)

Comments

[dogmatix]

Hmmm. On the one hand, you're right, it does sound like she was weirded out because she knew an actual ~person~ who likes to dress in drag. On the other hand, being told that you're transphobic, or acted in a transphobic manner, is difficult to hear, never mind accept, especially when you really think you're not. It all comes back to that 'a sin is better than an error' thing, I think.

I dunno if there's a good answer though. =/ But best of luck.

[soc_puppet]

The usual retort here is "Oh yes, because being called []-ist is so much worse than experiencing []-ism." But I definitely get it, and as a cis ally rather than a trans*/non-binary/[anything I might be forgetting/overlooking in my ignorance] person, it wouldn't hurt me too much to slow things down and/or take a step back, so I guess I may try to be a little "nicer" about it.

Thanks. I'll do my best.

[dogmatix]

Mmm. It is worse to experience '-ism' than to be '-ist', yes, but you have some space to work with here since she wasn't rude directly to his face (as far as I know). Eh, I think I'm saying it badly maybe? >_o

Not necessarily 'nicer', 'nice' doesn't always help.

[redsixwing]

C: Way to prove me wrong. *snerk*

I like the idea of approaching from the other side; that's how I got through to Spouse after endless rounds of "I'm not a sexist!"

[soc_puppet]

Now that I'm thinking of it, he went on to reference "Everyone's a Little Bit Racist" from Avenue Q (IIRC?). I definitely appreciated his input :3

I'm definitely thinking approaching from the other side is the way to do it. Maybe if I start with ablism and the rampant use of r*tard, lame, etc; I know she's extra sensitive to that. (Approaching from religion is also an option, but I seem to recall her using the "I'm a Jew, and I don't mind when people wish me a Merry Christmas" argument when I was trying to argue for "Happy Holidays" a while back, so.)

[mommy]

It's never enjoyable having your privilege pointed out, even if being aware of it makes you a better person in the long run (or at least make you behave like a better person). Even a quick runby of how to identify your -isms can help.

Good luck!

[soc_puppet]

True enough; looks like I'll be refining my approach a bit before I try again - hopefully I'll get to it within a week or so.

Thanks! I'll do my best.

[megido]

Usually when the perpetrator starts to vehemently deny that they're _____-phobic or ____ist, I like to respond with, "I don't give a crap what you are, so stop trying to tell me. I care about what you said, which pissed me off and would've pissed me off no matter who or what you are."

[soc_puppet]

An excellent approach. I'll have to remember that in the future - because I'm willing to bet this is not the last time I'll have to deal with that tactic =_=